Recent versions of firmware will be removed

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n7dmr
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:42 pm

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by n7dmr » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:19 am

This reminds me the netfilter case of GPL drama.

oh1fss
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon May 04, 2020 11:53 am

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by oh1fss » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:53 am

The power of true open source is that an open source project never dies. The development may freeze for a moment, but as long as there is the source code, anybody has the possibility to continue.

OpenGD77 is an excellent piece of software. Sooner or later it will catch developer interest.

Nothing prevents the current developers to continue. If there is good will, the current challenges can be conquered.

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:27 am

oh1fss wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:53 am
The power of true open source is that an open source project never dies. The development may freeze for a moment, but as long as there is the source code, anybody has the possibility to continue.

OpenGD77 is an excellent piece of software. Sooner or later it will catch developer interest.

Nothing prevents the current developers to continue. If there is good will, the current challenges can be conquered.
The problem is the additional clauses which Kai added to the GPL 2 license, and which all the developers (I think) agree with.

Specifically no commercial use of the firmware, and also no commercial derivations or versions of the firmware.

However, KC7RBW who is an expert, says that additional restrictions can't be applied to a GPL license.

AFIK, the opinion of KC7RBW is disputed by G4KLX, who has the same restrictions on MMDVMHost.
G4KLX says that no one can make commercial derivations of MMDVMHost, and also no commercial users can use it on their network.

AFIK KC7RBW is an expert in "Open Source Compliance", becuase its his job.

So commcerial companies can now take the firmware, which has taken thousands of hours of work by Kai, Me, Daniel, Colin, Alex etc etc and make their own version e.g. with encryption and sell this for $$$ to commercial users.

We already had a problem 1 + years ago, with a company finding a loophole to charge $50 extra for a GD-77 with the OpenGD77 firmware, because they said the $50 is an installation cost.

The time to install the OpenGD77 is probably 5 mins absolute max. So hourly rate for this company when installing the firmware is 12 x $50 = $600 per hour.
I just timed it an the firmware takes 30 seconds.

So really you could open the box, install the firmware and put the radio back in the box in 2 or 3 minutes easily

Pay per hour = $1500

There are already test cases in consumer law, which show that companies charging this are not actually charging for the installation, they are charging for the software


Or

If Danial, Colin and I work on SFR for which perhaps takes us 100 + hours (300 man hours)

I know Hytera charge $500+ for the SRF upgrade to their radios. So some company can again sell this for $500.

Remember commercial companies don't just download random firmware from the internet and install it on their radio, but they would buy a radio which has this feature and pay $400 as its cheaper than buying a Hytera


So everyone has to work for 100+ hours for free, and the some company makes $500 + many times

Would you work for 100+ hours for free and then say is OK for some company to make $10k + on your work ? Really.


So the core development team stops and the project ends

Yes people can play with the souce code and change the text and add a few small things. Perhaps even add Channel dual watch and some other things.

All the Italian devs, who are experts, now work on OpenRTX and M17.

I don't think KC7RBW said he would be continuing as main developer. I think he said he would delete his repo after he finished removing items which don't comply with the Open Source license


So unless the license is changed to prevent the commercialisation of the firmware, then I think its difficult for it to continue.

Also, even allowing constant access to the source code is potentially a problem, because some companies just ignore the law.

I don't know if its true, but I heard that perhaps some commercial hotspots use MMDVMhost even though G4KLX forbids this.

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:47 am

What I guess is needed is some arrangement, where people can access the firmware source code, if they agree they will not use it commercially or against the wishes of ham community

However this is not easy to achiveve, as it requrires a license change, but there is external code and also user submissions (PRs), which have licenses which allow unrestricted access and commercial usage.

I won't bore you with the details, but things like Hotspot mode would need to be removed, but potentially apart from that it may be possible.

But perhaps I'm in a minority in terms of preventing abuse of the source code and the firmware.

M7HGM
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:36 pm

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by M7HGM » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:09 pm

da3020 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:00 pm
I can download latest stable release D2021.01.19.01 but how can I upload it to radio?
Seriously

ZL2FL
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:26 am

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by ZL2FL » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:56 pm

:lol:

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by VK3KYY » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:21 am

Jimmy wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:16 pm
Is there any possibility to stop KC7RBW?
IMNAL, but KC7RBW is within his legal rights to do what he did.

The fundamental problem is that the basis of his legal rights is that the source code is released under the GPL license.

But the project always stipulated some essential additional clauses on top of GPL. Specifically absolutely no commercial use of the source code and hence of the firmware.

Again IMNAL, but KC7RBW contents that no additional clauses can be specified on top of GPL.
This is disputed by G4KLX who wrote MMDVMHost, which uses the same GPL + roughly the same additional no commcerial use causes.

I have no idea who is right, and only a court in USA could decide.

Hence the only way to resolve this problem is to attempt to change the license so tha GPL can't be used against the project.

HB9TZX
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:51 pm

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by HB9TZX » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm

Sorry, came late to the actual developments, so maybe I missed this:

Does KC7RBW have any legal standing in this case? So, does he legally work for any of the copyright holders of any of the code in question?

Just to be clear: If there is no plaintiff, then there is no legal case. Even if some guy comes and says that there is something not correctly compliant with the license, that doesn't mean that he can sue. He must have standing for this, e.g. he must have a harm done to him in order to be able to sue. And that typically can only be the copyright holder. At the moment I can't imagine that any of the copyright holders of any GPL code would sue this project. They could probably be contacted and asked if they don't agree with the use of their code in this project, just to be sure.

As I said, I just came to the party, but in all cases I know, where someone sued anyone aboiut misusage of GPL code, it was always in the name of the copyright holder (and typically against companies that sell products based on GPL code without publishing the source).

Just my 2¢

EDIT: Just read through the 8 pages of discussion. Seems the original issue of linking a binary blob against GPL code has morphed into something like adding additional lines to the GPL, which are not valid.

Whatever, it is a pity that this project is dead. This was the only open source community radio firmware in a well usable state. And it is probably the last. Most projects that started died because of the complexity of the work. So, we will be left with OEM firmware at the mercy of the manufacturer. Best bet is probably Anytone, which at least sometimes listens to its user base and does some firmware updates here and then. Most other, like Yaesu, Kenwood etc do never publish any updates. If we want new features, we'll need to buy a new handset again. So sad :(

K4ED
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:04 pm

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by K4ED » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:55 pm

>>Does KC7RBW have any legal standing in this case? So, does he legally work for any of the copyright holders of any of the code in question?

He actually is one of the copyright holders for at least a part of the code ...

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Recent versions of firmware will be removed

Post by VK3KYY » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:42 pm

K4ED wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:55 pm
>>Does KC7RBW have any legal standing in this case? So, does he legally work for any of the copyright holders of any of the code in question?

He actually is one of the copyright holders for at least a part of the code ...
Yes.

The git log shows he changed 2070 lines of code

Code: Select all

Andrew Jorgensen <>:
  insertions:    1675 (0%)
  deletions:     395 (0%)
  files:         44 (1%)
  commits:       20 (1%)
  lines changed: 2070 (0%)
  first commit:  Sat Nov 16 15:51:18 2019 -0800
  last commit:   Fri Aug 21 20:38:08 2020 -0700

His last change was Aug 21 2020, and a significant portion of his contribution was rewritten, as part of a general overhaul of the code, and not specifically to remove things he has done

However, some of his changes still exist in the code.

He definietly changed some pixels in the font.
He contributed the DCS functionality, as well as changes to the User Guide, CTCSS and lots of other small things like

Code: Select all

  Change   Display "VFO:B" instead of "VFO B" in quick menu
So in terms of the released binary, contributions from him are included.

However they could be removed, albeit with the loss of DCS and some other things.

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