Channel timeslot confusion

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:25 pm

Hi all,

Previously I had a pair of channels for each of the 3 local DMR repeaters configured in my codeplug, all in a DMR zone. I used to scan the zone with TG filtering off, and could listen to all traffic.

Then I decided to try having a single channel for each of the DMR repeaters and scanning with TS filtering turned off. This seemed OK, but caused some confusion when trying to respond to calls, so I decided to revert back to the previous approach.

Now I have 2 channels per repeater again. The channels as seen in the CPS show TS1 and TS2 as expected, but when I call up those channels on the GD77, they all show the same TS and can only change TS by pressing the * button.

It didn't work this way before. I am confused. How do I get the radio to use the TS from the channel in the CP again?

Cheers, 73
Darren, G0HWW

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:05 pm

This is strange. I reflashed FW into the GD77, now at Feb 16 2021. The radio initially obeyed the TS settings from the channels, but after I hit the * key to change timeslots, it stopped obeying the TS from the channels.

I would have thought that the TS switching with the * key would be non-persistent and that changing channels would restore the TS specified in the channel.
I have discovered that resetting the settings (Power on + Blue) causes the channel TS to be obeyed again, so I now know that I don't need to reflash FW to fix the issue, but this issue generally means that I must avoid pressing the * key if I want the radio to conform to the channel specification from the CP, which is probably how I managed to avoid noticing this quirk before.

Is this a bug, or is this working according to expectations?

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:21 pm

Oh, I see that this is mentioned elsewhere as a known bug: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1378
It might have been easier to find that if all of my attempts to search the forum weren't met with a response complaining that all the keywords i was searching for (channel, slot, timeslot, etc.) were too common, such that no forum search was performed.

G4EML
Posts: 919
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:01 am

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by G4EML » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:44 pm

Changing the timeslot by pressing the * key overrides the programmed setting.

To clear this override press and hold the * key.

If you go to Display Options and change the Info setting to TS then the timeslot indication will change to bold font when the override is active.


Colin G4EML.
Last edited by G4EML on Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:51 pm

Thanks for that info Colin, somehow I had missed that.

W9YA
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Location: DM65pd38
Contact:

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by W9YA » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:14 pm

I don't think you missed reading about the short vrs. long key press v/v the * key. i.e. That info is not anywhere I could find (easily) either, and I went looking for it three times in the past several months before I now know it well enough not to forget it ! Hi Hi.

Anyways, I agree that one channel per time slot works FB, more especially when you have several DMR repeaters to use/scan through.

I would also suggest these TWO programming/setup tricks:

1 - Enable the sound option -> "prompt beep". The resulting tone will be of a different depending on whether you are pressing the * key short or long !
2 - Be sure to order the talk group lists. When you use the left and right arrow keys to "scroll" through the talk groups; the prompt beep will be different when you get to the "top" of the assigned talk-group-list ! (i.e. I am suggesting that when a static group is assigned to a Time Slot and you place that talk group at the top it will be easily noted .)

Further.... There is NOTHING, other than the limits of data storage, that prevent you from creating a bunch of talk-group-lists; which is quite handy for repeaters that do things differently v/v what talk group is static on what time slot.

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 pm

W9YA, your suggestions are all good.
Although I can't remember who first espoused it, or what they actually said, I have always been a fan of the "Principal of Least Astonishment" and it seemed that I was experiencing a violation of that principal. Now I know about the long-press of * to disable the TS override and the bolded timeslot annunciator, it seems reasonable, though I think it would be more reasonable if the default for DisplayOptions->Info was set to Both (although I haven't found a scenario where Pwr gets bolded yet). That bold indication does at least give a clue to the user that something is explicitly overriding the channel's configured timeslot and might lead them to fortuitously discover the long-press * functionality,
Generally I'm very impressed with the way this has all been implemented. The GD77 is a very useable radio with this FW.

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by VK3KYY » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:19 pm

I think the TS override system will need to have an option to choose whether the TS override by pressing * persists after changing to a TG / Contact which also has a TS override

Originally, both the * button and the Contact TS override effectively had the same priority, so that if you pressed * to change TS, and then changed to TG (which had a TS override) the TS would be set to the override on the TG.

However several people said that this did not fit with their mode of operation and the firmware was changed so that the manual override by pressing * takes priority over the TG/Contact TS setting.

Personally, would also prefer if the TG(TS) setting had equal priority to the *, so that if I changed to a TG which has a TS, then the * key override would effectively be cleared.

However, as these are 2 completely different ways of handling the TS override this will need to be an setting on the Options screen.
The biggest difficulty is describing this setting in the total of 16 characters width of the screen i.e "TS Override" takes 11 characters.

g0hww
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by g0hww » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:34 am

To add a little more confusion to the thinking, I am currently in favour of prioritising the channel's TS as configured in the CP. This is mostly for the reason that I have not yet felt the need to specify a TS for any contact. In fact, when i was initially using a 2 channel per repeater CP, I clearly never found the need to press the * button to manually switch TS. The main reason that I decided to revert to that approach from a signle channel per repeater CP was the number of keypresses required to enable/disable the TS filtering.

I do agree that a configuration option to determine TS control priority is the best way forward. My thinking is that it is generally a choice between obeying the codeplug (more precisely, the radio's internal representation of that, which may have been locally modified), or obeying the user's explicit TS selection, decided at run-time when the user selects a different TG/Contact or a different channel, when the scanner changes channel, or the radio is turned on.
My suggestion at this time is that you might consider an option called "TS Priority" which could have options of "TS Priority:CP" or
"TS Priority:User".
I think that this, combined with the bolding by default of the TS annunciator if the CP's setting is overriden by the user, could be a good way forward.
My reasoning behind this is that it doesn't matter whether the CP has Contacts that override the Channel's specified TS or not, for the purpose of choosing and setting the TS Priority. Either the user's TS override takes priority when something changes or the CP takes effect.

I may have a tad more heresy left to throw into the mix.

Going back to the number of keypresses required to enable/disable the TS filtering. I do wish that there was a single keypress binding to toggle that on and off. I found myself wondering whether the long press of * is really needed to disable the TS override and whether the regular press could simply be used to select the alternate timeslot to that specified by the CP or to revert to the CP specification, but that notion was confounded by thinking about use of the VFO rather than a preprogrammed channel with a hard coded default TS, though I suppose that per-contact TS overrides are still in play. I guess that I won't be suggesting that.

However, I am a fan of the highly customisable Steam Controller for gaming and that makes me wonder whether there is any potential for a double-press detection capability? If so, perhaps the TS Unoverride, currently on the * long-press could be swapped to a * double=press, and the TS filter toggled by the * long press, perhaps with TG filter mapped to # long-press.
If not, perhaps it might be possible for the Quick Menu to go back to the last selected line when it is reinvoked. That would cut the number of key-presses down to 3 from 8 to enable or disable TS filtering.

A speedier means of changing the TS filtering might lead me to try again with the single channel repeater CP. Ultimately I would expect better battery life if I could avoid scanning when monitoring both time slots of a single repeater.

Sorry for the length of my waffling.

VK3KYY
Posts: 7486
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Channel timeslot confusion

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:45 am

There is already an option to display both the TS and Power (per channel) override, called "Info" in the Display Options.

Some people hate the bolding of these small texts, hence its an option which is defaulted to Off.

I think somehow this feature didn't get documented in the User Guide, and I will need resolve this oversight.

Also, I like the "TS Priotity:" User/CP probably use Ct rather than CP because Ct is used elsewhere in the firmware as an abbreviation for "Contact" which is effctively what the TGs really are. They are a Digital Contact but the contact type is "Group" call instead of "Private" call, or "All" call.
We don't support the All call contact type, as AFIK its not used on any Ham radio systems.

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