Changing channels with different Rx group lists

OK1TE
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am

Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by OK1TE » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:43 am

Hello,
I'm not sure whether this is a bug or feature, anyway it seems not intuitive to me.

Let's have contact groups:
Group1: Apple1, Apple2, ...
Group2: Pear1, Pear2, ...

Let's have Channel1 assigned Rx group Group1 and Channel2 assigned Group2.

Selecting contact Apple2 in Channel1 and then switching to Channel2 leads to having Pear2 selected.
I would rather expect either resetting the selected contact to the first contact of the assigned group or to the last used from that group or on that channel.

What do you think?

ok1pt
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:38 am

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by ok1pt » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:30 pm

There is even more confusion with zones: If you change zone by SK2 (Blue) + Up/Down, the first channel in the zone is selected, but the contact index in the RxG is kept even if the RxG is different. But if you change the zone by selection from the menu, the contact number is reset to 1.
With regards / 73,
Pavel

VK3KYY
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:25 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 am

The way the logic is designed to work is.

Changing Zones via the Zone menu will set the Contact to the first index in the TG List

Changing channels in the same zone will maintain the index of the Contact in the TG List, even if the TG Lists are not the same on each channel.
However if you change to a channel which a TG List with less contacts in it, and you have previously selected a contact at an index number greater than the number of contacts in the current channel. Then the firmware will set the radio to the first contact in the TG List, as the index number is not valid in the current TG List.

Resetting the Contact index to the first Contact in the TG List when you change channel, would considerably affect anyone who can access multiple repeaters on the same network, and wants to change repeaters but stay on the same Contact / TG.
As they would need to change the contact every time they changed repeater.

Changing Zones via SK2 +UP or Down, operates differently for people who have multiple repeaters in different zones which generally use the same TG.
Hence this allows operators in this configuration to quickly change Zone and retain the TG.



Are you saying that the firmware does not operate in this way, or that you don't like the logic, because it doesn't sort your particular circumstances?
If the firmware does not operate this way, then potentially there is a bug.

OK1TE
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by OK1TE » Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:04 am

VK3KYY wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:03 am
Resetting the Contact index to the first Contact in the TG List when you change channel, would considerably affect anyone who can access multiple repeaters on the same network, and wants to change repeaters but stay on the same Contact / TG.
As they would need to change the contact every time they changed repeater.

Changing Zones via SK2 +UP or Down, operates differently for people who have multiple repeaters in different zones which generally use the same TG.
Hence this allows operators in this configuration to quickly change Zone and retain the TG.



Are you saying that the firmware does not operate in this way, or that you don't like the logic, because it doesn't sort your particular circumstances?
If the firmware does not operate this way, then potentially there is a bug.
Well, then it's not a bug. Still, I'd personally prefer resetting a contact index when switching to a channel with different TG list not to mix apples with pears.

The assumption of keeping selected TG for different repeaters - feature which I like - work until TG lists are the same, however fail when switching to another network or a channel having different TG list for any specific reason (as long as the TG lists have different content/order).

VK3KYY
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:25 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by VK3KYY » Sun Jan 10, 2021 9:00 am

The problem is that there is no concept of network in the codeplug.

Zone is the closest think in the data structure which is analogous to network, but there is no convention for this, and AFIK Zones were designed my Motorola for geographic separation, not network separation.

OK1TE
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by OK1TE » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:59 am

Maybe the solution could be a check if the contact has changed on the contact index when the channel was changed (and is DMR mode). If yes, reset the index to the first contact in the associated list. That works for all scenarios I hope.

My Home zone, and I believe it's not a rare case, looks like this:
1. local DMR Brandmeister repeater
2. my hotspot (OK DMR network)
3... local FM repeaters
n. simplex with local FM activity

VK3KYY
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by VK3KYY » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:48 pm

I don't think this is a solution.

People have designed their codeplugs around the flexibility of the existing system and how it tries not to reset the contact index unless absolutely necessary

I'm working on some changes to the voice prompts to always announce the contact name after the channel name, in DMR mode, but this has highlighted a number of unrelated bugs in the voice prompts system, which I am now trying to fix.

OK1TE
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by OK1TE » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:02 am

Just to mention one more consequence of mixing apples with pears:
Consider my example from the first post.
Let's have 16 apples and 32 pears.
Selecting Apple16 (one button press) on Channel1 and then switching to Channel2 then needs at least 15 presses to get Pear1, or getting back to Channel1, switching to Apple1 and returning to Channel2.
On the other hand, one could possibly see the advantage of getting quickly somewhere further in the longer list by switching to the shorter list using its end and switching back.

OK1TE
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:58 am

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by OK1TE » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:25 pm

VK3KYY wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:48 pm
People have designed their codeplugs around the flexibility of the existing system and how it tries not to reset the contact index unless absolutely necessary
Just wondering... Do you really arrange your codeplug that way? Different contact lists respecting order of each other and having different contacts on the same index on purpose?
I'd love to get inspired by such smart design.

VK3KYY
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Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:25 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Changing channels with different Rx group lists

Post by VK3KYY » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:11 pm

I have codeplugs for different networks, (BM DMR MARC etc), and if the same TG is available on both networks e.g. TG9, TG 505 are both OK for both networks, then I arrange my codeplugs so that those 2 TG's are in the same position in the different TG lists, so that even if I change channel to one which has a different TG list, then the TG remains the same.

Everyone has their own way of building a codeplug, there isn't a single "correct way" to build a codeplug.
e.g. Some people don't use TG Lists at all.

It varies hugely depending on the networks that people use e.g. BM, Phoenix, TGIF, BM etc etc, and other factors like personal choice.

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